Universe

Hello again,

The last thread I started got a little out of hand and was closed by the administrator of the forum, so hopefully this one can start in a slightly new direction from where we left off.

If you have any curiosity, the post was called, "Get your torch and pitchforks," in an of course jokeingly manner, but if you want background, read away.

Anywho, in the post I asked (eventually), 'Why is believing in a supreme being a qualification for joining DeMolay?'

And the best answers, I guess, were that because DeMolay was never meant to be "godless" organization and that basically all the masonic family has this requirement, for...ever.

That really wasn't the kind of answer I was looking for.

My question:
What does believing in a supreme being benefit DeMolay?

and by 'DeMolay' I mean as 1 brother's experience and as an international organization.

thank you.

Basically DeMolay and all other "Masonic" organizations have this same requirement because we take membership oaths on "the Volume of Sacred Law" and these are viewed as a contract between us, individually, and God.

To be a member of any Masonic organization, one is required to believe in a God, and a God who will hold us accountable if we violate promises made to Him (or Her). If one does not believe in any God, or a God who does not care what we do, then our membership oaths are void and meaningless.

While we do not care about the details of a member's personal beliefs, beyond that he believes in a personal God who will hold him to his promises, we can not accept than anyone who doesn't meet those minimums can be accepted as a Brother of the Order. That does not mean we can't be friends with such a person, but the intimate relationship meant by Brotherhood can not exist, and such a person can not uphold the Fourth Precept of Comradship, any more than they can the Second Precept of Reverenece for Sacred Things. There is probably no reason they couldn't uphold the other 5, but a DeMolay is bound to uphold all seven.

And while none of us are perfect in carrying out our promises as a DeMolay, any more than we are perfect anywhere else, we are striving to improve every day. Not believeing in a God who meets our requirements, means you can not improve in the Second Precept, even if you somehow manage to improve in the Fourth.

I hope this answers your questions in a manner you can understand and accept.

Certain branches of Freemasonry have tried removing the requirement of belief in God, and have been cut off from the mainstream of the Fraternity, root and branch, because of it. They have something that is quasi-masonic in form, but it isn't Freemasonry, and a DeMolay who didn't believe his vows were to a God who cared would be in the same position.

Respectfully,

Dale

PS Just as some college Honor Societies take the form of a Fraternity, but don't involve all the aspects than make a real Fraternity what it is, including the "Brotherhood" aspect, means they also have a "quasi-Fraternal" group, not a real Fraternity. And the very root of Fraternity, the Latin "Frater", means "Brother".

"..and a God who will hold us accountable if we violate promises made to Him (or Her)..."

That was actually the first time I've seen that phrase. And that makes much more sense as a requirement than just believeing in an creator. That quote rules out all agnostics, pastafarians (followers of the flying spaghetti monster) and Jedi, as I've heard a few people say might be okay, well... at least the agnostics.

But obviously if the requirement of belief we're to evaporate from the organization, the precepts would be altered and DeMolay, although having the same ultimate outcome, creating a fun and responsible young manhood and building deep friendships for the creation of an adult man suitable for the advancement of the human species, would become a slightly different organization.

but, I've still got the question, and I'll copy/paste it in here.
---
My question:
What does believing in a supreme being benefit DeMolay?

and by 'DeMolay' I mean as 1 brother's experience and as an international organization.
---
It just seems like we have our priorities in the wrong place.

Don't you think that DeMolay should be open to anyone wanting to learn a clean, upright, and patriotic life?

Isn't that why we require 2 signatures of active DeMolays to vouge that the person being initiated is trustworthy enough to keep his promises all by himself?

I know changing the foundation of DeMolay is more than an impossibility. I just think we're missing a lot of opportunity.

It's just that I'm getting a lot of 'because those are the rules"

but, why are they the rules?
"If one does not believe in any God, or a God who does not care what we do, then our membership oaths are void and meaningless."
Couldn't those oaths to god be changed to an oath to the organization?

Oath: a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DWrobbel,

Well, let's try this again.

You question "because it's the rules" and ask can't it be changed?

Well, it is what it is because Dad Land and Dad Marshal and the other "Founding Fathers of DeMolay" thought that it mattered, and they made the rules so. And those
who "are DeMolays", as opposed to carrying a membership card in their wallet, accept the rules because they LIKE what DeMolay is. People who lie about their beliefs and go through the forms and ceremonies without buying into the beliefs, are not only hypocrits, but they generally leave because they DON'T enjoy what they find inside the package.

Could the rules be changed, and DeMolay thereby be changed? They could, but since DeMolay belongs to the members, and the vast majority joined BECAUSE THEY LIKE what is in the package, why should the product change to satisfy those who don't agree? No one is forced into DeMolay, or forced to stay, if they don't like what they find.

As for how the required beliefs, all of them, including God, benefit a DeMolay, I can only point to my own experience, as everyone has a different experience. In the "profane" world, as technically non-members are called, I am a cautious, reserved person, who is slow to trust other peoples motives and slow to make friends.

Yet inside DeMolay I can be something of an extrovert, instead of an introvert, because I can trust that almost anyone I meet is "on the same page" with me, and whatever their agenda, it isn't to my detriment. Will I meet rare individuals who I shouldn't trust in the Order? I will, but I can afford to take the chance of trusting until I am given a reason not to. As soon as I meet a Brother, I will loan him money, or my car, or otherwise trust him implicitly, which I will never do with a new acquaintance who isn't a Brother.

Is that a benefit, to have a group I belong to where I can afford to trust implicitly, instead of hold people at arms length? I believe so. If it isn't good enough for you, then all I can say is "good luck and see ya around".

A core principle of Freemasonry, and all related organizations, is that those who join accept what they find, or leave. Masonry changes to satisfy nobody, and in general that applies to DeMolay, too. You are welcome to found your own DeMolay-like organization for folks who only like 5/7ths of what DeMolay is, if that be you inclination. But DeMolays feel no need to jettison 2/7ths of DeMolay because YOU object, you being ANYONE. The next person to object will want this other 1/7th removed to satisfy THEM, and soon there is NOTHING left.

You are welcome to join the Scouts, or other oragnizations for young men, if you feel they meet you needs more closely....but wait, Scouts require a belief in God, too, don't they?

Either you are what we are, or you aren't. If you aren't, as I said, "good luck and have a good life."

Yours,

Dale

PS No organization which relies on a core of values and beliefs can satisfy everyone, because somebody will object to ANYTHING you hold as a value.

DeMolays don't compromise their values. THAT is a key part of what makes them DeMolays. Trying to satisfy everyone is a mooks game. Anyone who tries, will end up satisfying no one.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dale Dietzman,

DWRobbel - My question:
What does believing in a supreme being benefit DeMolay?

and by 'DeMolay' I mean as 1 brother's experience and as an international organization.

thank you.


Jack (my Reply) =

Good Day all, I believe I can give to you my opinnion on this, and you decide.

DeMolay is about Fidelity; whatever you want to believe it is, it is up to you however; facts are

DeMolay is founded on the Principle of Fidelity;

Jacques DeMolay didn't die because Love for his parents, or Reference for Sacred things,

He didn't die because of Comradeship,
He didn't die because of Clean Thoughts,
He didn't die because of patriotism.

Sorry for putting it so blunt, I may have offended someone but, no sugar coating the facts.

Jacques DeMolay was burned at the stake because he was faithful to the Trust Committed to him, he took an oath before his bretherin and God...

We may break oaths to each other from time to time, knowingly or forgettingly...However, we are constantly to be reminded, an oath to a Supreme being is one to be taken seriously.

If you do not believe in a Supreme being, how can you be of trust?

You feel no consequence to this life you are in, therefore your words are nothing to hold as value.

Now you knowing this about Jacques DeMolay; It should reach down into your inner depth of soul, and realize 'Yeah, he was a good guy.'

People judge you by what you do...Holding an oath to a God, not only strengthin's your word but, you strive to keep *ALL* of your words to *anyone*...

Don't *you* think it matters when your car is broke down on the side of the road and a Senior DeMolay says " I will be there. " If he wasn't taught as a DeMolay to abide by his word, he wouldn't have a voice in his mind telling him to stand by his word.

An Oath to god, benefits a DeMolay through this means in my opinion.

Sorry if I didn't flowery talk it or anything...

I can just speak from my Side of the table, I can trust someone who is willing to take an oath to god and hold that oath,

than someone who could careless if there is a God, and prefer to take an oath and not really intend to stand by it.

That is my best answer - From one DeMolay to another DeMolay.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jack O'Neil (Rob) Freedom Chapter,

If the only reason why you keep you're word is because of fear of punishment in the afterlife... you are weak.

"You feel no consequence to this life you are in, therefore your words are nothing to hold as value."

That is a dumb thing to say. Your morality isn't solely based on your religion. It's human nature, it's how your parents installed values into your head. When was the last time you decided to pay for your tic-tacs instead of stealing them, because if you didn't god's going to get you. Never. You paid for those tic-tacs because that would be selfish and it wouldn't be fair to the shop. good things can happen without being rewarded with a heaven.

"Now you knowing this about Jacques DeMolay; It should reach down into your inner depth of soul, and realize 'Yeah, he was a good guy.'"

So what you're saying is, JD is a good guy because he knew that life is finite and the afterlife is infinite, and if betrayed his oath, he would "receive the everlasting condemnation of [his] God"

That last paragraph sounds like a selfish reason.

That's not the main reasoning for his martyrdom. He didn't want the people he was protecting to be persecuted, tortured, pillaged, robbed, all that fun stuff.

Doesn't that sound more selfless?

I don't understand why I need the threat of everlasting hellfire to keep a promise.

I can do that all on my own.


so that whole 'he didn't die because..' section, is completely false also.

comradeship
fidelity
patriotism
and reverence for sacred things were all virtues that JD professed in his final days.

Say what you will about Jacques, HE believed he was keeping faith with his vows as a Knight Templar to his God, even if his God didn't meet the approved Vatican template(?).

You may believe that you don't need a God to believe in, that's your right. You don't get to dictate what other people, or the groups they form, believe in. That's THEIR right.

End of discussion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Field Representative,

quote:

Originally posted by DWrobbel:
If the only reason why you keep you're word is because of fear of punishment in the afterlife... you are weak.

"You feel no consequence to this life you are in, therefore your words are nothing to hold as value."

That is a dumb thing to say. Your morality isn't solely based on your religion. It's human nature, it's how your parents installed values into your head. When was the last time you decided to pay for your tic-tacs instead of stealing them, because if you didn't god's going to get you. Never. You paid for those tic-tacs because that would be selfish and it wouldn't be fair to the shop. good things can happen without being rewarded with a heaven.

"Now you knowing this about Jacques DeMolay; It should reach down into your inner depth of soul, and realize 'Yeah, he was a good guy.'"

So what you're saying is, JD is a good guy because he knew that life is finite and the afterlife is infinite, and if betrayed his oath, he would "receive the everlasting condemnation of [his] God"

That last paragraph sounds like a selfish reason.

That's not the main reasoning for his martyrdom. He didn't want the people he was protecting to be persecuted, tortured, pillaged, robbed, all that fun stuff.

Doesn't that sound more selfless?

I don't understand why I need the threat of everlasting hellfire to keep a promise.

I can do that all on my own.


so that whole 'he didn't die because..' section, is completely false also.

comradeship
fidelity
patriotism
and reverence for sacred things were all virtues that JD professed in his final days.

Personally; I can't speak for anyone else...

I don't fear god. To do so, *to me*, stands against any religious believe, and anyone who says they fear god so they worship him, they don't believe in the core values of any religious teachings.

You don't fear god...or you're not suppose to...

Normally people want to ascend to his plane and to where he is. To meet with him, shake his hand, talk with him, not out of fear of going to hell. (if you have this preception than yea, you can see god as a Bad guy [As you do] ) but, that's not God.



And you missed my point mate.

No; not everyone gets their values passed to them by their parents...

Not to preach any religious belief but, Jesus spoke that if you want to find god, believe in Jesus's teachings.

I don't care what religion you are; *If you* want to find God, believe in *your* faith as you wish.

Fidelity; Faith to your word, faithful to every trust committed to you, faithful to your ideals...

as I said before; to me you lose creditability if you took a oath on the holy bible (or any other religious doctrine symbol) and don't intend to keep to your word.



About Jacques DeMolay: Condemnation was a factor in his decision; this to me is a dumb arguement because; he also makes a reference that his comrades will haunt him beyond the grave...

Going after that part of Jacques DeMolay's words would be like...Me ignoring everything else he said and say...

"Jacques DeMolay died because he didn't want to get harassed by the Spirits of his Comrades."

There were Multiple things that factored into why he shouldn't...mainly his word was linked to *all* of them, he gave a oath in presence of God, and to his bretherin.



You know, thinking about this made me wonder, why not go and tackle religion its self...

What does religion do?

I'm almost 100% sure(decline it or not), your idea of Religion will probably contain; Wasting money to fund a church, reading a bible every boring sunday, maybe doing a fundraiser here or there...maybe even throw in some hokey song and dance to cleanse the soul of evil or some crap like that.


Religion helps you aspire, to set a goal beyond this life of what you want to accomplish.

it sets good morals, you learn to become a better person; What do you learn from DeMolay again?

Call it selfish but; in reality it is not.

A better person through any means is still a **better person**...What do Better people do? *They contribute to society...*

what does contributing to society do? *It helps everyone in the world as a WHOLE*.


For God, For Country, For DeMolay.


What say you?

quote:

Originally posted by DWrobbel:


so that whole 'he didn't die because..' section, is completely false also.

comradeship
fidelity
patriotism
and reverence for sacred things were all virtues that JD professed in his final days.

oh my god kid, no.


Jacques DeMolay died taking *our virtues* of...

Patriotism - regardless if it was intended by him or not...

**(original before Editing)**
The founding members of DeMolay had Fathers who served during World War 2...Not sure if you know much about WW2 but, Patriotism was viciously sparked in the United States by Young folk after Pearl Harbor...

(modified after being corrected)
DeMolay was founded after WW1, in which case, Patriotism still stood as a good sign of character, as well these young men had lost their fathers because of WW1. A sense of pride had risen in them to see it as a value.

(My mistake for my previous paragraph, Was doing a report on Franklin Roosevelt hours before the post and I got a lot of knowledge about WW2 to begin with lol.)

as well in GENERAL; Patriotism is a Good thing. Why not have it as a cardnal virtue of teachings to be a better man?

Comradeship - As I stated above, it was Multiple things that kicked in, the key note with Jacques DeMolay combinding it all was his Word.

Trust builds Friendship/Comradeship, if you like a person, *you don't normally* betray them especially if they expect you to back them in support.

Reverence for sacred things - Jacques DeMolay held the Bible as his connection to his God, That was a factor but, it wasn't the reason he was executed.

You have to also factor in that the founding members of DeMolay looked for Good qualities for Young men approaching the threshold of Man hood.

Things that make Young men *better*

Love of parents - If you can't respect the people that brought you life and took care of you, you're likely not to give any consideration to anyone else.

Reference for Sacred things - This doesn't mean just Religious...it can mean civic monuments, Sacred places where you and your family hold memories, things that really inspire you to try harder each day.

Curtsey - To reach out to the stranger, the aged, and show that you are a good person worthy of some respect.

Comradeship - Loyalty to people who are your friends. Without this, how do you expect to get anywhere in life?

Fidelity - To be trustful by standing by your word, it can help maintain organization in your life, it keeps your mind focusing on

Monday - Base ball practice,
Tuesday - College Classes,
Wedsday - A Dinner with Dad and Mom,
Thursday - Sleep and take off from work.

Cleanness - In thought word and deeds; this goes hand in hand with Fidelity as well curtesy and Reference for Sacred things.


Apologies that their not in cronological order but, had to touch on them as I saw priority.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jack O'Neil (Rob) Freedom Chapter,

To try to answer your question, i think that the only reson that you have to believe in a supreme being is because that is how it has always been done. Further more i think that anyone should be allowed to join demolay, no matter what there religious beliefs or lack there of might be.

If someone needs to believe in a higher power to fullfill there promises as a demolay so be it. But i feel that you can follow the cardinal virtues with out having god or whomever watching over you. your bond to your fellow demolays is more than enough if your in the organization for the right resons.

Christianity is part of DeMolay, whether or not you want to believe it. (Check MC's part in opening ceremony and Mathew 5:16) Believing in God is something that gives a person a piece of mind, a relieving thought that after all the trials of this world something beyond awaits to give eternal live for faithfulness. It's not a crutch or a safety net. Its a redemption of our sin nature. I'd love to have DeMolay to provide more teachings of Christianity, it would help young men to find the Truth.

Can a person keep promises without believing in God, sure its possible, but in reality I wouldn't say that I could trust an Atheist, simply defying God is plain Stupidity! Imagine a painter starting his first job. he's asked to paint every other wall green and red. Instead he paints them all black. When asked why he says "well I choose to believe that there is no such thing as color, i know that every thing is only black and white and shades within." The employer's gonna say find a new job, or in an atheist position a new club other than Demolay.

God's existence shouldn't be denied because some wish to think they are more intelligent than to believe that this world was 'created'...A mass majority of DeMolays believe in God and we'd like to keep it that way.

In a very short and sweet answer, a very tiny benefit to an individual DeMolay by being required to believe in A SUPREME BEING (I say 'God', 'Allah', or 'The Almighty Klondike Bar' - for the simple fact that as Masons we are taught not to define God but to simply have faith in his existence.) is that it prepares you to be made a Mason, and any Free and Accepted Mason on here can tell you that. For reasons that may or may not have been made clear to you yet, the Book of Constitutions of the Antients [si], stated specifically that "all who partake among the benefits of our fellowship are doing so under the starry decked canopy of heaven, created by the Grand Architect of the Universe."

Also, in a much lengthier answer, because I am not to be out-typed by all my brethren above...(lol/jk)

Consider our membership for a moment. Could you fathom an atheistic chapter of DeMolay? First of all, the name of the chapter could not reflect the Order of DeMolay in any shape or form at all, because any of my Masonic brethren can tell you, the story of J. DeMolay stems not merely his own personal convictions, but those of the Widow's Son of Naphtali (name intentionally witheld). Masonry regards all the working tools of operative masons, like the square and compasses that adorn our lodge halls. When you take your degrees, you are partaking in the building of (to quote Webb's monitorial and SHAKESPEARE) "that spiritual building, that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." How could an atheistic chapter of our order retell the story of a man so great as J. DeMolay, if they do not beleive that when he died he went to his "house not made with hands"?

Another, also simple benefit to the Order itself is, people like to belong to things. Members of Masonic Lodges are generally (or it has been my experience) members of churches. They may not regularly attend, but they are members. This means their kids (hopefully young men around the ages of 12-14) will grow up in that church, thus fulfilling their requirement to join their father's fraternity, that we now call Freemasonry. Churches are thriving with kids, and these are the kinds of kids we tend to look for in membership because they are (for the most part), faithful, patriotic, and law-abiding citizens, who would take great interest in studying our work.

So tell me, can it be made any clearer the benefits to DeMolay, both individuals (in their Masonic preparation), or to the Order as a whole (membership potential)?

I will also, at the risk of suffering the pains and penalties of quoting non-monitorial Masonic work, give you this final thought from the first degree of Masonry (DeMolay's, except for DW, look away from your screens...)

"You were asked in whom you put your spiritual trust because according to our Masonic institutions no atheist can be made a Mason, which is why it was then necessary that you should place a belief in Deity, otherwise no obligation would be binding upon you."

Just think, we've been doing this in courts of law since the founding of this country... "so help me GOD"

Active DeMolays, it is now safe to return to your computer screens, but I guess you wouldn't know that because if you were looking away, you wouldn't know that it was now safe to return to your computer screens...I guess that's ok. lol

Darn it, this is like the third time I've edited this thing and it's about 2am in Kansas right now, but I keep reading and finding new things to say...grrr why do you all have to be such intelligent people??? lol

First, my congrats and most gracious Fraternal thanks go to Brother Dietzman (though this early in the morning I've probably butchered the spelling of your name...sorry sir) for his reference to his humble interoverted nature, which is brought out by his involvment in our Fraternity. In lodge, we call this 'being on the level'. The story of President Truman or FDR, or one of those guys, can't remember which, though I'm pretty sure it was Truman, was told by our W:.M:. at the last meeting. He was just a newly made Master Mason who was Raised to that Sublime Degree...by his gardener. This relates to DW's question because, if we are all 'on the level', meaning nobody is better or worse than anybody else, then who is in control? It isn't the Master, because he meets on the level also. Their has to be perfect order in the Universe. It has to be created by a person's reverence and awe that is due by a man to his creator. Only religion explains that. Honestly, until science can prove beyond any other explanation how the universe came into existence, and how it works so perfectly, God (by any other name) is the only answer. It should be duly noted at this point that I am a devout catholic who is fully aware that his Masonic involvement is grounds for excommunication, but my Fidelity to the order is stronger than my love of the church.

Finally, before I actually go to bed, I promise...

Jack... you actually did offend me. Obviously someone has not taken the York Rite yet (though, I may not be able to blame you for that, since I have no idea how old you are, my apoligies, I'm just venting a bit here), or has no understanding of the second degree of DeMolay, at all...or you just havn't quite read into the whole thing quite yet, or perhaps their are things that you don't quite understand about the story...like why DeMolay was killed at all, in which case, with the assistance of my Brethren, I will bring you to light... Consider, Brother, the time period. The Inquisition. The King killed DeMolay and his fellow Templars out of jealousy for their wealth and power. This was done by conspiring with the French Pope at the time, since this was also a period where the Schism still existed (a 2 pope church - one in France, the other Roman, Italian). King Philly didn't like all that money and insisted that the Templars failed at their mission and that they were robbing the church. These are the charges falsified by the Inquisition, and that's why our namesake was burned. He was burned because he was born and raised (probably by a loving family, though not much is known about them - Filial Love in action) to hold things sacred (like his values to keep his brothers safe and hide all that gold, which Nick Cage had to go find in National Treasure...I have banned that film from being shown in my house for that very reason), which is also emblematic of patriotism. Please brethren, correct me if my tired mind has stepped on something that I shouldn't have, and my sincere apoligies to brother Jack, didn't mean to get so...loud...but I'm tired of religion comming into question, because it is true, many organizations connected to Freemasonry are being shut out by taking religion out of their equation. To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" and I mean it. Religion is just a part of what we do. To quote Brother Dietzman, "End of discussion."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: *Kng_Mxr_Fxr*,

this is never going to end....

I checked Matthew out, but in a more intimate connection to the fraternity, let's check out Psalms, and my fellow Masons will be glad to check up on this I'm sure...get your Bibles out, class.

"Observe how pleasant and how beautiful it is for Brethren to dwell together in unity. It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard, that ran down the skirts of his garments. And as the dew of Hermon and as the dew that fell down upon the Mountains of Zion, for there the Lord commandeth the blessing, even life for evermore."

DW, if this doesn't simply answer your question, I don't know what will.

(For Masonic reference, Craft Masons, check your books during the EA-MM opening after The indicatory rapping of the gavels after you look to the East...DeMolays please check the 133rd Psalm)