Universe

I dont know if anyone has expierenced it yet but in colorado we used it at conclave and its basically a shorter ceremony of initiation and it is highly revolutionary in my opinion since we initiated 5 new guys in bout 15 minutes

The short from exists, but it doesn't give the candidate the proper ceremony and should only be used when there aren't enough demolays to put on both degrees.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jarod_dyess (TX),

or if you just want to get them as quick as possible cuz colorado made a rule after doin short form for most of the year we will give the formal actual version at conclave see problem fixed

Unfortunately, the problem will NEVER be fixed.

There is only ONE chance to make a first impression.

When someone is Initiated into DeMolay in full form, even if there are some hitches like having to have two or three people do all the preceptors, they get the idea of that THIS is what DeMolay is supposed to be like.

When someone is "Short formed" they get the impression that THAT is what DeMolay is supposed to be like, and it is not nearly as impressive and is unlikely to make nearly as much of an impression.

Short form leaves new members feeling like they are in a club. Full form leaves them feeling like they are in an Order. And nothing that happens LATER will change that first impression.

So don't think that, because you eventually get a "round tuit" about putting on the complete degrees that you have "Fixed" the problem of those new members who got "short changed" on DeMolay.

That problem is beyond your power, or anyones power, to "fix".

Ever.

See that is exactly where i disagree in my mind as long as there is some demolay ideals in there it is perfect and if you get them in quickly they keep interest more where as if you take a month or two just to build a team to get a real initiation they are generally gone by the time the team is ready so in my mind i am not saying dont do the actual inititation i say do it eventually with the same short form guys therefore they get a little bit of everything

The issue might be in the process of initiation than, not just the ceremonies themselves. The standard protocol for getting a member is, After the Chapter gets to know the young man which is usually a couple weeks, the petition is read at a St. Meet. Read again, and vote on petition at next St. Meet, which for most Chapters is two weeks apart. Then begin initiation and a lot of times this is done on different days due to the length of the degrees. So the whole process from meeting the guy to performing the demolay degree is 6 weeks, and many times this causes him to loose interest.

Now many have said "this is a time period that can be used as a test period, if he leaves before its done, than he wouldn't have stayed long with the Chapter anyway." How do you know?, you don't. I've seen it done where they walk and are voted on and get both degrees in the first night, simply because the dad is a Mason. Non the less the degree gives a feeling and impression to the young man which no obligation/ ceremony of light through-to-gether could possible have.

There really is no good answer to this. I am not a fan of short form, even if some parts need to be doubled up. However I have used it my chapter on rare occasions, such as when a couple of members of the degree team can't be there at the last minute. I think it is acceptable in certain situations, but I think the candidate needs to be prepared. That is I think he needs to be told that he will need to the full form degrees within 90 days and that there is much more to learn about being a DeMolay than he will be taught in the short form. A little post short form instruction would also be helpful too, such as who was Jacques DeMolay and why is our Order named for him.

yea true but i have my opinion and you guys have yours

Dale, this is one of those RARE times that I'll disagree with you, but only to an extent.

I was reading short form, and seeing it as obligations only and then the full degrees at a later time.

But I don't believe having 2 or 3 people do the preceptors will shortcut the experience as drastically. Also, first impressions don't always affect what the person brings out of an experience. If you'd seen MY Initiatory degree you'd understand

But on the note of short forming, I disagree with it. I don't like shortcuts that will ruin putting forth everything in the degree (even if you aren't doing it with a full 21 people).

S&F

We use the "Texas DeMolay Induction" at our Chapter. There is a catch to using the "short form", though. Within 90 days, the new DeMolays are required to see the full form degrees. We are endeavoring to do the full form degrees at least every 90 days by using the older guys that are in Priory. We are in the North Texas Area and our Priory has been in a rebuilding mode, since most of the Sir Knights are off in college. In Texas, we are required to end our meetings by 9:00 pm which makes it hard to do both Degrees in one night. Do I like it, not in the least, but it will have to do until we get our Chapters built up enough to do them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dad Waldrop,

Is the shortform degrees synonymous to being shortchanged during the ceremony of initiation?

I think it is... That's why we need a follow-up by requiring him to see the full degrees in full within 90 days.

I think we have to give candidates the honor and pleasure of conferring him the degrees in full and what we are giving him is the whole and not just a part...

Also, a brother who underwent full conferrals would have more bragging rights than those who underwent shortform...

While those who underwent shortform may feel insecure... But this really depends on what will happen after the initiation... which is letting him understand and experience the true essence of DeMolay.

I agree with GA Dad on "the post short-form instructions would be helpful."

...especially post initiation activities for everyone.

I think that we should not have a short form and I have not seen the new short form where can I get a copy of the short form

Many of the jurisdictions have their own "short form" ritual. Generally speaking, the opening & closing of the Chapter is done like the Installation Opening & Closing

However, the "official" short form for the Initiatory & DeMolay degrees is contained in your Ritual book on page 70. Read the second "directorial" paragraph under the Examination Queries.

Of course, permission of the EO must be obtained before this is used.

Thank you Dad Blaisdell

quote:

Originally posted by Dale Dietzman:
Unfortunately, the problem will NEVER be fixed.

There is only ONE chance to make a first impression.

When someone is Initiated into DeMolay in full form, even if there are some hitches like having to have two or three people do all the preceptors, they get the idea of that THIS is what DeMolay is supposed to be like.

When someone is "Short formed" they get the impression that THAT is what DeMolay is supposed to be like, and it is not nearly as impressive and is unlikely to make nearly as much of an impression.

Short form leaves new members feeling like they are in a club. Full form leaves them feeling like they are in an Order. And nothing that happens LATER will change that first impression.

So don't think that, because you eventually get a "round tuit" about putting on the complete degrees that you have "Fixed" the problem of those new members who got "short changed" on DeMolay.

That problem is beyond your power, or anyones power, to "fix".

Ever.

unfortunately, i have to disagree with you. I was initiated with the short-form and i know a few other people who had the short-form, and we thought it was an ok ceremony. It works out better for some people because they can get in, then see how some of the ritual is, then get the long-form. rather then just go through the huge ceremony. it kind of eases some people into the idea.

Brothers,

I just thought I would put my two cents on this issue or topic. When I joined DeMolay there wasnt enough Active guys in my chapter Matter of fact there wasnt. There was a P.R. from Wyoming that came up and dad trained a few guys that evening me and two other guys were as We called it WOW and VOW. It was interesting but a few months down the road (there is two lodges in my town fort pierre, and pierre lodge) we had a gentlemen come to us that was a Senior DeMolay, Chevalier he told us that if we got so many guys we would have the Full fledge iniation. Couple months went by and we did it. I tell you I watched the opening and closing the full stuff and was put through the degree's I remeber that more then the short form. I prefure the Full degrees. Understanding that some chapters cant do it that way. But look at it this way get your advisors, Masons involved have them help you out. My chapter does that still currently we have the Senior guys to some of the higher parts in the DeMOlay Degree some of us like me potray Jacque DeMolay, But i recall mostly when I joined and was passed through each degree, my father being a 50 year demolay putting my robe on me after we took our last obligation. I truly truly remeber that as a proud moment. To later being Raised to the Sublime degree of a Master Mason with him. I can tolorate Short form but I think it rips off the memebers them selves. Theres not much to memorize short form. Plus you want to make your Canidates feel like they are joining somthign that truly is a great thing. Just to through it together and do it that way is kinda not really impressive. not saying or offending anyone but I myself prefer the full form. Some chapters cant but like I said ask for the help. you got mason out there even Senior DeMolay.

Fraturnally,
Brother Derek R. Runge , 2008 Chevalier Elct, PMC, Blue Honor key, Founders Medel, Lamp of Knowledge

MM Hiram lodge #123 A.F.A.M. Ft.pierre SD.

Bro. Wiiman,

That is exactly the point. INITIATION is NOT "easing into" something. If it is to have it's intended effect, it must be exactly the opposite! And after the "Short form" has been done, much of the impact of the "full form" is lost, when it is finally done.

Freemasonry has been in existance for 700 years or more, and that much collective experience has found that Initiation has to be done properly, even is it is done with a "team effort" from several Lodges. DeMolay is not a "club" where you "ease into" your new status.

As an Initiatory Order, a Fraternity, you radically change your status, and your mindset, when you join, and the impression made on the Initiate is directly linked to the "shock value" of the ceremonies, even when nothing being done is dangerous or damaging to the candidate.

You are free to disagree, and place your experience in DeMolay against mine but I have now been a DeMolay for 40+ years, a Master Councilor, a Chevalier, a Chapter Dad (multiple times in multiple Chapters) and now a State Chapter Dad.

I know what works in the context of my experience base. I also have 35+ years of Masonic experience including service as Master of a Lodge in addition to my DeMolay experiences.

Will you be here working as an adult for DeMolay in 40 years time? If so then I will agree that "short form" worked out OK for you. But I will hold that you are the exception to the vast majority of young men I have seen come through DeMolay's portals.

D.

to Dale,

First of all, I can assure you that i will always be involved with DeMolay. I love DeMolay and i always will, I was actually elected Master Councilor on August 1st and am looking forward to my term. I'm just saying that some people may need a little bit of time to get used to it. i Didn't, but some people might. I'm not saying that the ritual is bad and that people shouldn't get into it, i'm simply saying that there are a few of my friends where the ritual is a new concept and they may not want to dive in head first, but test the water. I just think it's cool because if someone does need some time to get used to the idea of the ritual, then they can have it. But if you don't need time to get used to the idea, then you can go ahead and dive into it.

Brother wiiman3893,

May I add to your last comments to Dad Dale. One I can see were your active. Let me add to you I served the Station of Master councilor for 3 years. I loved my time as MC. But back on subject. As to your friends testing the waters with ritual. I kinda feel strong about Dad marshal when he wrote that ritual. Its not a testing test at all. What is in a book that we use at every meeting every ination is the way I as a DeMolay place my life in those Seven Virtus. Its Not a "TEST" I take it in my on perspective as a WAY OF LIFE. The whole purpouse of the Iniation is simply stated in when the person is brought into the chapter room and explained the purpouses by the Marshal and Senior Decean. Younger memebers all they have to do is watch a while at teh ritual work being done. after a while they know what is to be done. I myself can pick up my lodge book or my DeMolay ritual and read it and visually see the floor work being done in my head I have never practiced. I give the Flower Talk and the Ceremony of light. Do you think I ever witnessed them myself? The answer no I see it all in my head and I think that is very impresseive. I ant getting mad or upset here just letting you know how to see things from another perspective I know these old Senior guys very well I look up to them. I have been a mason for a couple months now A DeMolay for 5 and a half years and now as active as I have been I will be crowned a Chevalier in a couple weeks. DeMolay isnt just a club Its LIFE!

For God, For Country, For DeMolay

Fraturnally,

Brother Derek R. Runge, PMC, Chevailer Elect, Blue Honor key, Founders Medel, Lamp of knowledge.

MM hiram lodge #123 Fort. Pierre SD

to sddemolayguy,

I know that the ritual is serious, and I treat it seriously as do all of my friends. I'm simply saying that it may be a unique concept to a few people. And believe me, I do love the ritual and I loved the full form, but the main point i was getting at was that there is a perk to it for some people. To me, i loved all of the ritual. But not all people might at first. Just try and think of it through someone elses eyes. They had never seen anything like this before, and they might be a little nervous. I personally would have loved to have had the full-form for my initiation, but we didn't have enough members to do it. I still think that the Full-form is best, and i think that it should be done whenever possible, but i was just saying that it really isn't a bad ceremony, and it might even be better for some people.